more ramming problems

[svrainbowau]

I was just looking at the subs and spotted that once again we have a ship with a higher hull rating than ram rating. Meaning you are better to collide with people than ram them (not that you would do either normally)

Also looking through the elf ships (as I was thinking about them as well) I can see that they have the same problem.

I would still like to have one spartan games document that has all the stats for all of the fleets (or at least all the stats for one fleet per doc). Use it like you would a GW codex so that you have "the current version" of each. You could even go all out and put the cost to field them as well as the squadran sizes all in the one document.

[RED_NED]

Yeah, some ships promote pulling skids into the enemy unfortunately 

We play that a ramming ship always uses it's ram rating no matter where it's facing, just to keep it simple, but it isnt the official rule.

[quietus]

I was just looking at the subs and spotted that once again we have a ship with a higher hull rating than ram rating. Meaning you are better to collide with people than ram them (not that you would do either normally)

Also looking through the elf ships (as I was thinking about them as well) I can see that they have the same problem

This was intended ... to add a bit more layering / diversity ... may not make much sense but every once in a while that 1 point can be beneficial / detrimental ...

I would still like to have one spartan games document that has all the stats for all of the fleets (or at least all the stats for one fleet per doc). Use it like you would a GW codex so that you have "the current version" of each. You could even go all out and put the cost to field them as well as the squadran sizes all in the one document.

I believe they are working and improving upon this as we type 

[LeCaptain]

I like that interpretation Red Ned.

[dboeren]

Some ships are unusually good at ramming, other ships are worse than average at it.

I'll be posting an updated version of my one-page stat sheet later today as soon as I update it with the new workbench stuff.

[Conteshard]

Some ships are unusually good at ramming, other ships are worse than average at it.

And this is clear; what someone finds "strange", and I'm one of them, is that you can still ram with your 8AD with a elven BB, if you skid in the target. Wouldn't be better to add a rule like:

"if your ship has a lower ramming value than hull points, you use the ramming value if you collide with another ship in YOUR activation"
this way we stomp the "Tokyo Drift" stile

Shard

[dboeren]

The effect of that is the same as saying "There is no such thing as a ship with a lower ram rating than its hull rating" since the ram rating is only used in your activation anyway.  It takes away the ability to define a ship that is worse than usual at ramming.  Also, turning to collide with the side is not free, it costs turning and it may cost you in terms of where you want to go next.  You may not be able to turn or may not want to.  Turning may cause you to fall short of colliding when you would have made it heading straight ahead.

The way I've always pictured it with the Elf ships is that their fragile pointy ends can't take the load that well and start to crumple when hitting another target.

I do agree it can look a bit odd, but it gives the potential to have a certain ship characteristic that otherwise wouldn't be possible.

[Conteshard]

The effect of that is the same as saying "There is no such thing as a ship with a lower ram rating than its hull rating" since the ram rating is only used in your activation anyway. 

That's not what I wrote:

let's use the elf BB as the classic example:  8 hull points,   7 ram rating.

What I wrote (or, at least, what I wanted to write ) is that, if the BB rams or collides with another ship in its activation, it uses the ram rating of 7. If it's rammed or "collided to" in another squad activation, it uses the hull rating of 8.

Shard

[dboeren]

What I wrote (or, at least, what I wanted to write ) is that, if the BB rams or collides with another ship in its activation, it uses the ram rating of 7. If it's rammed or "collided to" in another squad activation, it uses the hull rating of 8.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood then.  I thought you were saying a ram by an Elf Battleship should be 8, you're actually saying that a sideswipe should be 7 (the same as the ram).

[quietus]

Yes on one hand it makes it "easier" to keep up with but YOUR NOT Ramming when you side swipe!!! 

[RED_NED]

Also, turning to collide with the side is not free, it costs turning and it may cost you in terms of where you want to go next.  You may not be able to turn or may not want to.  Turning may cause you to fall short of colliding when you would have made it heading straight ahead.

The way I've always pictured it with the Elf ships is that their fragile pointy ends can't take the load that well and start to crumple when hitting another target.

I do agree it can look a bit odd, but it gives the potential to have a certain ship characteristic that otherwise wouldn't be possible.

I think people's main problem is with the fact that you can even pull skids in the first place, rather than it has it's downsides. 

We had a discussion where a player said "Is my ramming ship actually ramming?" This is so bizarre a question that we just simplified it. Take the ramming diagram in the rulebook (on page 32). I dont care what people say, those 3 ships are ramming. If the elf ships can ram at that slight an angle then they can always avoid using their ram rating.

Making ships always use their ram rating makes it much easier to enfore ships being bad at ramming

[Conteshard]

What I wrote (or, at least, what I wanted to write ) is that, if the BB rams or collides with another ship in its activation, it uses the ram rating of 7. If it's rammed or "collided to" in another squad activation, it uses the hull rating of 8.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood then.  I thought you were saying a ram by an Elf Battleship should be 8, you're actually saying that a sideswipe should be 7 (the same as the ram).

right on! ^___^

This way no more arguments "but I just bumped into you, it's not a "ram"  " 

Shard

[quietus]

? I disagree I'm afraid ... In my simple mind the front end would be considered a ram and a collision would be any where else on the ship ... Is it so hard to believe that an elf captain knowing they have weak front ends would ... wouldn't they rather "pull along side"

Look Just because Spartan is asking for feed back and has modified the rules for things that have caused a stir in the past ... I don't think people should abuse this as an opportunity to CHANGE every little thing that just pisses me off when "they do this" ...

[Conteshard]

Quietus: I don't like the rule, I suggest a possible modification, and while doing it, I don't abuse anything or anyone.
I personally find being able to do more damage with a bump that with a ram a bit strange.
If Spartan says "Mmm... Shard got a point, let's change the rule"  fine, if they says "naa: it's good as it is", I'll still sleep as a baby in the night... and this reminds me that being past two a.m. here in Pizzaland I should be in bed and not answering you.

Night!

Shard

[LeCaptain]

I agree that the "side swipe" thing is kind of awkward.

 

Some ships are unusually good at ramming, other ships are worse than average at it.

And that's the point of the stats, so why allow players to circumvent the poor ram rating like this? Honestly, elf players might be upset if they changed it, but does it really make that much of a difference? The one AD they are losing is hardly going to make or break a game, and they also have specialized ramming ships now. I think it is very silly to give a ship a ram rating and say that you only use it if the point of your ship contacts an opposing ship on your activation so that players can use a loophole to "collide" with enemy ships and not have to use the lower ram rating that they were intended to have. It is not hard to move the narrow point of an elf ship less than 1/8" to avoid a direct ram. I, like most people, felt like the raven destroyer needed a buff and it got it, so this isn't an "elves are too powerful" argument.

It makes way more sense and is far more intuitive to use the definition for a "ram" being: if you collide with something on your activation it counts as a ram.